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Hello Everyone,
Here are some photos of the Great Lakes Edition Icon A5 with a Rotax 916 IS 160 HP turbocharged engine.
Currently taking orders for people who want to upgrade their existing Icon or have a new Icon A5 upgraded.
We offer both the Rotax 915IS and the 916IS. I will be posting more photos and specifications in the next coming weeks.
Great Lakes Icon LLC located at Kirsh Municipal Airport in Sturgis, MI 49091 airport code KIRS.
Website: www.greatlakesicon.com. Facebook page is Great Lakes Icon.
Contact information is [email protected] Cell# 574-903-5662 anytime from 8am to 10pm Eastern time.

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Fascinating…How is this certified? Experimental Exhibition?

edit. Just looked at the registration it’s experimental exhibition. No chance you get this ELSA and you can’t do this in SLSA.

With the additional weight you will be well over gross weight, the additional thrust you will no longer be spin resistant.

So all you that want to do this bear that in mind.

that said I’m the only one in the world that has flown an even higher performance A5 (an engine with 40 more HP than the 916) than this and it was amazing, but highly experimental.

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Matt, I checked out your website. I noticed you are offering carbon fiber repair, is that on the A5?

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Hi Bret,
The Icon pictured is experimental exhibition so I can test constant speed props. For most of my customers we will roll the planes into ELSA so they do not have to do the letter to the FAA every year and they can still use a light sport repairman to do the condition inspections. No A&P needed. Once MOSAIC happens there is a good change we can run a constant speed prop under ELSA. As for over gross weight my plane was used in testing for the 1570 increase with the Icon test pilot. With the 5 blade prop and added thrust my plane stalled at gross weight 1570 pounds 5 knots slower than a stock Icon. In the coming month we will have the test pilot here again testing all of the parameters for the POH along with spin testing. Give me a call sometime. I would love to hear about the higher HP Icon.

Fascinating…How is this certified? Experimental Exhibition?

edit. Just looked at the registration it’s experimental exhibition. No chance you get this ELSA and you can’t do this in SLSA.

With the additional weight you will be well over gross weight, the additional thrust you will no longer be spin resistant.

So all you that want to do this bear that in mind.

that said I’m the only one in the world that has flown an even higher performance A5 (an engine with 40 more HP than the 916) than this and it was amazing, but highly experimental.

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Hi Bret,
Yes, Great Lakes Icon is a certified sales and service center for Icon aircraft. I have one of the top certified carbon fiber specialist in the country working with me. We have a rotisserie and have completed minor and major carbon fiber repairs on a few Icons. We also offer X-ray and Ultrasonic testing along with full paint services.

Matt, I checked out your website. I noticed you are offering carbon fiber repair, is that on the A5?

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This is very interesting and exciting Matt! When do you think you will publish Cruise Speeds, Climb Rate, Fuel Burn, Etc. ?

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Hi Michel,
I will post the specifications after all of the flight test are complete by the certified test pilot.
I can confirm over 1,000 feet per minute climb at full gross 1570 pounds on a warm day and 100 knots cruise in smooth air of course. Time out of the water….Amazing!

This is very interesting and exciting Matt! When do you think you will publish Cruise Speeds, Climb Rate, Fuel Burn, Etc. ?

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Thanks Matt! Are you concerned that the Carbon Fiber Center-aft section where the engine mounts is too weak for the new power profile?

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Hi Michel,
I have worked directly with Icon on this project. The engine mounts are good.[

QUOTE=Michel Gadbois;1569]Thanks Matt! Are you concerned that the Carbon Fiber Center-aft section where the engine mounts is too weak for the new power profile?[/QUOTE]

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That is great stuff. You were lucky Icon staff were still around! Timing is everything.

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Matt - I'm a fairly new ICON owner. Does the ICON A5 GLE T give you better climb as well as a faster cruise speed than the 2023 icon with the 912iS 4 blade? Your GLE looks awesome!

Domingo

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Hi Domingo,
Welcome to the Icon Family! To answer your question, there is a major improvement in climb performance, take off distance land and water.
The Icon has a lot of drag with its design. That being said the 915 and 916 editions cruise easily at 95 knots and depending on prop setting over 100 in smooth air. I invite you to reach out and come fly my demo. Anyone is welcome. Once the official flight testing is completed I will post the POH numbers for everyone to see.

Matt

Matt - I'm a fairly new ICON owner. Does the ICON A5 GLE T give you better climb as well as a faster cruise speed than the 2023 icon with the 912iS 4 blade? Your GLE looks awesome!

Domingo

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What spot are you in to come by and visit?

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Hello Everyone,

Updated plans: I will have the Great Lakes 916 Edition on display all week at the Rotax, Motive Aero, Auto Gyro USA booth #945 next to the Ultralight runway. I will also have our Great Lakes edition enclosed Icon trailer at Oshkosh but not in the booth. Feel free to call me at 574-903-5662 to meet up.

What spot are you in to come by and visit?

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Awesome! Thanks!

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Matt - Please let me know if you're ever in south Florida. Thanks

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Hi Domingo,

I have a 916IS Icon customer in the Orlando area. Once the plane is done, the plan is to have his plane at the Tampa service center available for test flights to see the performance difference. I will let you know when this happens.

Matt - Please let me know if you're ever in south Florida. Thanks

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That’s sounds great.

What is the estimated cost for the conversion?

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Prices on his website

http://greatlakesicon.com/services/

That’s sounds great.

What is the estimated cost for the conversion?

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Having a great week at AirVenture 2024!

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Matt, on your website it says that in the 916is conversion that it will be switched over to E-LSA. Does that mean the gross weight drops to 1430lb to meet the definition of an LSA? As you know the ICON A5 doesn’t meet the LSA requirements without an exemption that expires every 5 years and has very specific requirements.. can you provide details on how the airworthiness process works here? I’ve always wondered if the FAA would allow the appliance of the exemption to an E-LSA conversion.

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Great to finally meet the legend in person! You definitely have a powerful setup and I can only imagine the acceleration

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...E-LSA. Does that mean the gross weight drops to 1430lb to meet the definition of an LSA? ...can you provide details on how the airworthiness process works here?

Matt can detail more, but having researched this personally pretty deeply, there is a form/set of forms (they sent me a link) that the FSDO already has, to make that conversion. For a pretty new compliant (factory) plane, my local FSDO said I could just do that myself, but since we know they are understaffed, I am also aware that having a DER (at my cost of course) who would help expedite (not just review the app but actually do the physical inspection) would probably speed it up meaningfully. I believe, as with all experimental rules, arguably just about anything goes, so by becoming in essence your own manufacturer (of your version, serial number one of one) you declare those as you see fit. For this kind of conversion (I was looking at the 915 originally myself) it probably only needs a 5 hour fly off post conversion, and paper filing to get the new airworthiness cert.

I think Matt handles most or all of that for you if he does this conversion on your plane. I will note, having had an experimental plane before, the operating limitations the FSDO issues are negotiable and it's important to read and negotiate those right, hopefully Matt sets a strong baseline for them with his FSDO because changing that pattern with them will be hard later. For instance, with our turbine Lancair, I had to negotiate additional language on IFR flight (NA for an Icon), and especially with regards to populated areas. The default FSDO limitations they tried to give us effectively said we couldn't legally fly into any airport by a city, or over any city type populated area. I don't think there should be any operating limitations on this plane that aren't already on it pre-conversion, and hopefully one of them (the weight limit) would logically no longer require re-certification every five years.

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Thanks Gabriel. There is a significant difference between E-LSA (Experimental- Light Sport Aircraft) and Experimental Exhibition which Matt has his first version under. I have converted several ICON aircraft to Experimental Research and Development. This is not a challenge, Converting one to Experimental Exhibition is also not that much of a challenge as long as you can prove you are 14CFR 21.191 (e) "Exhibiting the aircraft's flight capabilities, performance, or unusual characteristics at air shows, motion picture, television, and similar productions, and the maintenance of exhibition flight proficiency, including (for persons exhibiting aircraft) flying to and from such air shows and productions."

However he stating that he can get an E-LSA under 14 CFR 21.191 (i)

(i) Operating a light-sport aircraft that—
(1) Has not been issued a U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate and does not meet the provisions of § 103.1 of this chapter. An experimental certificate will not be issued under this paragraph for these aircraft after January 31, 2008;
(2) Has been assembled—
(i) From an aircraft kit for which the applicant can provide the information required by § 21.193(e); and
(ii) In accordance with manufacturer's assembly instructions that meet an applicable consensus standard; or
(3) Has been previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under § 21.190.

One would think that this aircraft has to operated under and meet the definition of a Light Sport Aircraft under 14CFR Part I.

ICON has a exemption that allows it to certify the aircraft up to 1680 lb as long as it meets all other definition of light sport aircraft. This is a problem as you get higher and higher gross weight meeting the stall speed without "aid to lift enhancing devices" aka Flaps of 45 KTS.

So the question still stands when you convert an A5 to E-LSA does the Exemption get applied to the the E-LSA aircraft? The exemption is issued to ICON Aircraft not to the owners it also has to be in the aircraft (thus they put it in the POH). It does more than exempt the weight it litterally allows it to be considered a light sport aircraft for all other parts of the law such as maintenance and repair as well. My assumption is that the FAA would not extend this to the customers because it has specific requirements that are spelled that that the aircraft has to meet it and it for the Special Light Sport Aircraft airworthiness certificate. But hey find the right FSDO or DAR and you might some how get lucky? I don't think you will as the DAR has to be designated by the FAA to do each job and you bet your ass the FAA checks their work (thanks Boeing) Other than that the aircraft gross weight has to drop to the definition of the Light Sport Sea Plane under 14 CFR Part 1 which is 1430 lb.

Its a fascinating situation, as there are only 3 light sport exemptions that have been granted to date ASFAIK and the only one that is in production is ICON. The rest are Vickers Aircraft, and Terrafugia. The rest already meet the definition of a LSA out of the box so this is not an issue for them.

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So the question still stands when you convert an A5 to E-LSA does the Exemption get applied to the the E-LSA aircraft?

The correct answer is neither a: no, nor b: yes. It's c: NA. The key is the nuance of this: making this change means it is no longer an Icon A5. Remember my "serial number one" comment above? That's why I said that, and I think that all applies the same throughout the experimental world, including E-LSA, but again, Matt can chime in about the gross weight specifically, see my maintenance note below.

Serial number 1 may not be what you list in the paperwork, though. For instance, kit planes (like Lancairs, Vans RVs, etc.) have serial numbers from the kit and that gets used in their paperwork, but all experimental planes are really serial number one for that builder or builders, with that combination of avionics, features, building techniques, amenities, etc. We have a friend who took an RV kit and made it a twin engine plane, to my knowledge the only twin engine in the world off an RV kit. I saw a guy at Spruce Creek with one that had a radial engine and was gorgeous, but now how Vans ever imagined it. They were both RV kits, but not remotely the same plane. Again Matt can speak more if he wants to how he does this, listing Icon Midwest as the builder, or an LLC that's a JV between Icon Midwest and the airplane owner, etc. I assume he piggybacks this, though, off Icon's paperwork, and for instance, in the maintenance program for this plane as an E-LSA, he essentially says "follow everything Icon says for its A-5, plus A/B/C and minus X/Y/Z" for things that are modified. I think, especially after the time that has passed now, the gross weight increase on this should be able to be made permanent under an E-LSA banner specific to each plane. I hope that's how he can get it done, especially as the bigger engine only further overcomes potential gross weight issues.

When MOSAIC is finally in place another year or two from now I would hope that a LOT of this will be much easier.

Note: be sure to understand the insurance consequences to you before doing this - you probably can't ever go back once that paperwork is approved, even if you never actually made the mod. There isn't a path with Icon to reconform it under their approvals, and they would likely never take on that liability. That's a one-way street.

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I guess my ICON warranty would become invalid should I decide to do the upgrade?

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That is a conversation I would have with your aviation attorney, and also Matt, and potentially even Icon if you go forward with this, and I'd get whatever that is in writing. Some of that could be subject to a court interpretation in the worst case scenario. It isn't quite as easy for a manufacturer to dump responsibility as wiping their hands of it. This upgrade clearly changes some things that logically Icon couldn't be responsible for going forward, but there are others that have nothing to do with this that they logically wouldn't get to disown, even despite some of the language in your contract (hence my attorney note above). I'm sure Jeep's warranty somewhere say something about how it's voided for changing the vehicle but every Jeep there is (that's worth calling a Jeep) has some kind of modification, it doesn't let Jeep off the hook. That's just my understanding having looked into this but not yet gotten 100% through everything.

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Gabriel, Respectfully I think you are conflating or misunderstanding the airworthiness process. ICON specifically asked in the last renewal of the exemption to make it permanent, the FAA basically said “ thanks for asking, but no”. So just cause they have had this exemption for 12 years doesn’t change the expiration of the exemption.

An LSA weather Experimental or Special (E-LSA or S-LSA) has to be an LSA with respect to the regulations unless exempt. What defines what a LSA is in 14 CFR Part 1. It specifically says if an airplane the gross weight cannot be more than 1320 lb, if a sea plane its 1430 lb. This is not up for debate. ICON has an exemption to this definition up to 1680 lb but they cannot do more than 1570 because they’d no longer meet the stall requirement without the aid of lift enhancing devices of 45 kts.

if you remove the aircraft from S-LSA under which it’s produced it has to fall back under the 14 CFR part 1 definition of 1430lb as the exemption is issued to ICON aircraft. As you have noted when you do this it’s not longer an ICON aircraft it something else but without an exemption.

the only clean and legal way I know to keep or increase your gross weight and turn your aircraft experimental is to go to Experimental Exhibition. This category doesn’t have a gross weight, stall speed or other limits. You cannot however maintain the a light sport repairman or under a drivers license medical, or any other benefits that LSA offers. Your trade though is an airplane with increased gross weight and more horsepower but you’re operating as an experimental at that point.

I have extensive experience getting airworthiness for many different aircraft from Large unmanned aircraft to amateur built, to research and development. I know the system and laws well.

I am only posting to provide my experience with both the aircraft type and with the airworthiness process. Matt can chime in here but I don’t believe there is an A5 in the registry that has been successfully transferred to ELSA without a 1430 lb gross weight limitation if so I’d love to hear the legal basis as it would be an interesting case study if not a legal interpretation for the data base.

I’ll happily be corrected if I’m wrong but the legal gymnastics if successful, must have been gold level.

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Matt, of course, will have to chime in here if he sees fit to. As I said, I didn't go farther than opening the paperwork link, so I didn't get to that fine stroke level of the issues specific to E-LSA vs. experimental in general.